Where the industry tends to label, flatten and homogenise people—“you’re a stylist, you’re this, you’re that”—Paloma Elsesser insists on thinking of herself, and her peers, as “people of multitudes.” So what of the multitudes of Paloma? Her’s are many. Not just “smart model-girl,” she is also a “pseudo muse to the people in [her] life,” an “Internet girl,” a “365 party girl”—(“I like chatting and smoking, and sitting in the smoking section, and loitering outside, and dancing, and flirting, and having fun, and screaming over the music”)—an “outsider,” a “people pleaser,” a “looney toon weirdo,” a “real ass bitch,” and the queen of saying, “I don’t really like this, I don’t fuck with that.”
When asked about the inevitability, or otherwise, of her ascent from waitress and student of literature and philosophy to bona fide “supermodel”—she has walked for Fendi, Hermès, Lanvin, Marni and Mugler; fronted Vogue covers across the Atlantic; and, earlier this year, even welcomed Architectural Digest into her glorious Brooklyn town house (with its Milanese interiors and now viral red marble bathroom) as part of its Open Door series—she laughs. “Can I just say I did not think that… I did feel like, and hopefully this can still happen for me, I want to be Oprah. Remember on MTV, they had MTV News? I thought Suchin Pak was the coolest person on Earth… The supermodel aspect was not specifically in the cards for me, however I think my ability to connect with people definitely charted it.”
When asked about the inevitability, or otherwise, of her ascent from waitress and student of literature and philosophy to bona fide “supermodel”—she has walked for Fendi, Hermès, Lanvin, Marni and Mugler, fronted Vogue covers across the Atlantic, and earlier this year, even welcomed Architectural Digest into her glorious Brooklyn town house (with its Milanese interiors and now viral pistachio green and rosso marble bathroom) for its celebrated Open Door series—she laughs. “Can I just say I did not think that… I did feel like, and hopefully this can still happen for me, I want to be Oprah. Remember on MTV, they had MTV News? I thought Suchin Pak was the coolest person on Earth… The supermodel aspect was not specifically in the cards for me, however, I think my ability to connect with people definitely charted it, in a way.”
Embodying the specific markers that can estrange one from belonging, Paloma lauds her mother for always making her feel special and affirming what was rare about her outside of her looks. Learning to lean into her natural gifts, she has also emerged as “a poet” and “a writer.” While her published works include a vulnerable and beautifully written essay titled The Price of Being First (2024) for The Cut, she is typically too shy to share her writing. Born out of the very real fear of people’s perception, and referencing Bell Hooks’ Talking Back: Thinking Feminist, Thinking Black (1989), this year she also adds “founder” of the back talk reading programme to her ever-evolving list of multitudes. Partnering with Dover Street Market to create a space—“a weird little womb of comfort and safety and joy,” as she calls it—for peers in the industry to participate in open-hearted reading, thinking and reflecting, thus far back talk has gathered voices across Paris and New York for its first two installments.
One of the few to have read Paloma’s most private musings is her close friend, and now collaborator, stylist Dogukan Nesanir—also known as Dogi—who joins her here in conversation. Though they connect to the call separately, both are in Paris and have been up until the early hours of the morning together. They joke that they should have recorded their conversation last night, had they not completely forgotten. Amidst their playful back and forth, Dogi earnestly praises Paloma’s character—perhaps one of the perks of doing an interview with one of your “closest, closest friends.” Clearly touched, Paloma of people’s perception, “Isn’t there nothing better than when your friends see you and support you?”
Photographed by Pegah Farahmand and styled by Dogi, this cover story—Paloma’s first editorial with the pair—further positions her as “the arbiter, the viewer, [and] the campaigner of [her]self,” a continuation of the ongoing story of her multitudes.
It’s giving—
It’s giving eggs with the fish eggs on top… The team was saying we literally should have just recorded our conversation last night.
No, this is perfect. I didn’t know this was your first shoot together… If everyone’s ready, we can jump right in. The first thing that I thought might be nice to talk about is your shared experience of growing up in these loving families and multi-generational homes but at the same time being surrounded by people who didn’t look like you or share your experiences. Can you talk a bit about your early childhoods and natural dispositions, being little kids, being yappers, and talking to everyone?
Picking up on the last part, I’m super grateful that I literally had nothing but I had everything. One thing that P and I connected on from the very beginning, [was that] both of our parents did not win the lottery, but there was unconditional love and so much freedom to be whoever you wanted to be. I was chubby, I was weird, but I always had many friends. I always knew I was that bitch from a very young age. So when people ask, “When did you become confident?” I’m like, “Girl, I was never not confident.” I was always thinking I could be the president. In third grade, they asked me what I wanted to be and I was like, “The president of the world.” And I kind of still want to be… I was also going to school in the West side, the chic side, the posh side. Everyone was being dropped off in Range Rovers, and here was I being dropped off by the subway, taking an hour to get to school, and everyone else was like, “Oh, just got out of bed 10 minutes ago.” Those little things, they actually didn’t affect me in a negative way… I had things that other parents didn’t give their kids, which was love, affirmations, all those little details that I think made my character pretty much firm. Like, I hate a bitch with no backbone. [All laugh]. We both hate that! I think you build a backbone off seeing how your parents operate, how people treat you, how people treat your parents, and how people treat your social status… When you’re not in the same bracket of social life, things can get really dark, really quickly—especially in high school—but they didn’t because my character was really shining through. I think this is where we both always connected. It’s like, it’s us and it’s always going to be us.
You have both talked separately about finding refuge in books growing up. For you, Paloma, in non-fiction and poetry and for you, Dogi, in fashion publications. Can you speak to this?
One of my biggest pleasures is reading her essays, which no one ever sees. I mean, we need this book to immediately come out! It’s like, when P reads me things—I mean, look, I love to read, but there is a way that she operates in her brain—the pen is so strong in her hand. This is how I see her. [It sounds] so “tragic Hollywood movie,” but I see you. Like two dykes laying in bed, screaming at each other “I love you!”
With P, how we connected was also on the fact that we don’t really show everyone our true colours until we fuck with them. Her poetry and writing makes her feel super vulnerable. And with me, in my work, there are certain people that I let into my work and my world that not everybody has access to. In this industry it’s always so labelled. You do this, you become that, you do that, you become this. I don’t want to speak for P, but for both of us there are certain levels of letting people in. I think those vessels are that for sure.
The main thing with me is, my work revolves around women. The biggest compliment I still get to this day is [that] people think I am a woman, because they say I have the female gaze.
You know I hate those gays that… try to make the female into a drag queen. I don’t really like a gay man not knowing how to dress a woman. That’s my pet peeve.
Exactly. It’s one of those things that I always see.
I feel like, expressing through image from an early age, that was a bit of a struggle. Because when you’re like, “I don’t come from a fashion family, I don’t come from a fashion city,” it’s a really big thing. This year is officially my ninth year working in the industry, I started really early. When you’re not from the same circles, when you’re not from the same city, it just becomes quite the challenge to convince people that you are still in that circle, like you belong there and you fought your way in, you opened the gates and sat at the table.
Oh wow, that’s really funny! Can I just say, I did not think that… I literally never even had the concept. It wasn’t even this secret desire, this secret dream. I do have a deep passion for people and connection, and again, leaning into natural talents and things that come easy to me, which is talking to people. I did feel like, and hopefully this can still happen for me, I want to be Oprah. Remember on MTV, they had MTV News? I thought Suchin Pak was the coolest person on Earth. I wanted to be a [Total Request Live] DJ. I just wanted to connect with people on subjects that I was excited about. The supermodel aspect was not specifically in the cards for me, however I think my ability to connect with people definitely charted it in a way.
I think [with] those early friendships—and this is something that Dogi and I also connect on—is that I am a 365 party girl. I like chatting and smoking, and sitting in the smoking section, and loitering outside, and dancing, and flirting, and having fun, and screaming over the music. I’ve been sober for over 14 years, and I still love that shit. I think so many of the friends that I still have to this day were found at the club and on the scene. So I don’t know about the supermodel aspect, but I have the personality for more front-facing work, maybe that’s what it is. Especially my early years, and kind of still how I live today. I love culture and I love going out, and I love the night and all of those things. It just allowed me to feel supported, but it’s funny because I think there is a real dissonance between the scenes that raised us and fashion… In New York, the friends I have and that are doing really cool stuff, like zines and books and projects, they’re not really attached to fashion in the same way. It’s not that they’re not downtown figures… Do you know what I mean? Whether it’s London, New York, Berlin, even Paris, there is a dissonance. So I think bringing that energy, that kind of banjee-ism—[Laughs]—Dogi and I definitely both have [that]. That’s really a very long tangent…
Weirdly, I was just at a wedding with my oldest childhood friend—we’ve been friends since utero—and her mom had all of these pictures of me throughout our whole life. I never felt super uncomfortable in pictures. I ended up acting as a pseudo muse to people in my life. Whether it was my sister or my friend’s mom or a friend doing an art project. I don’t know why. [When I was scouted by Pat McGrath in New York], the timing felt like a spiritual directive, because the industry was changing. Not only did I not think I was a model, because why would I think I was a model? There was no evidence in the world for me to believe or think that. In the plus size or the curve industry, all of those women that I looked to were so glamourous and amazonian, and sexy. Even though I was plus size, I was never wearing plus size clothes. It was never an industry that I looked to. I just got creative. I would squeeze into shit that didn’t fit me, I would wear men’s clothes. I just did whatever I wanted, which I still do to this day. [Laughs].
I love you so much, and that’s very nice and kind of you to say. Isn’t there nothing better than when your friends see you and support you? [Laughs].
I will say, this month I will have been working for 10 years. I [recently] saw Pat [McGrath]. I had been doing little things, but she was really my stamp of approval. That’s all you need, one person, which is kind of unfortunate because it’s now whatever. She was that person who found me. It’s been 10 years since her first product came out and I was like “early prototype Gold 001 Pat McGrath Labs,” first product, like literally day one. I forget that I’ve been working for a decade. It actually made me reflect, and I’ve been writing about it. Despite not feeling like a supermodel, because I don’t, period. [Laughs]. Not because I’m like, “Oh my God, I’m so ashamed, self-hating, or anything,” but because I like modelling, I enjoy making pictures, but it isn’t my joy or my passion, it doesn’t fulfil that part [of me], that hole in [my] soul. I think the throughline that has allowed me to still be around, and—you know what, I will say it,—still be relevant—[Laughs]. Like, there are girls who can walk every show, they open the season with YSL, they end with Chanel, and they’re gone in two seasons. They’re tall and beautiful and white, and they fulfill all the checkboxes of the people that should sustain in this world. I am none of those things, and I am still here. There’s some kind of commentary of, “She’s just around because of diversity.” And it’s like, if that was true they could have brought 1000000 new bitches in. And I’ve tried, I’ve always tried. [Laughs].
I’m 5’ 6 1/2”. I mean, right now I’m a bit smaller but I’ve been a size 16, I’ve been a 10—
—and I’ve worked through all of those sizes. I’m 33 years old and I’m shooting a story with girls that are popping now. It’s nice to be affirmed about my beauty, and other people can say that I’m a checkbox, but above all else, that is a testament to the fact that I am a real ass bitch and I have always centred my purpose around people. I don’t really believe in legacy, but I [do] believe in leaving this Earth knowing—or at least trying—to make some kind of difference, whether it’s small or big. I know that sounds corny, but it’s such a privilege. I think most people don’t get to actualise that kind of change in the world, and even though fashion is small and my world is small, that hole in the soul is filled by the fact that I have done something in my career and I’m still here. You know, beauty fades but real bitches win! [All laugh].
I am the queen of that! There is a way for it to be done. I was just doing a show and this young model was asking me for advice. I was like, “Oh this is like a really important moment.” I’m definitely someone who really believes in imparting whatever wisdom I have because I was given so much—not in modelling, but just in life. I was like, “Be nice to everyone, say ‘hello.’” What I really meant by that was that we are a part of a day. Yes, the producer and everyone is going to make you feel [special], “Do you want water, do you want—?” But we are part of a system. The shoot also doesn’t happen without the lighting, the shoot also doesn’t happen without the digi tech, the shoot also doesn’t happen without the catering. When talent—and I’ve watched it—holds a set emotionally hostage, it affects the whole day. If I’m going through it, which Dogi and I often talk about, with the environments and the world that we grew up in and the way that we have to think, we don’t really get the option of not showing up for work. One thing about me is I’m always going to show up for work. I may not show up as my highest, most happy self, but I will always show up my most respectful self. [I will] always give every single person in the room the respect and the dignity they deserve, and that is more than just saying “hi” to everybody and “bye” to everybody, which obviously I do. It’s a deeper thing. If I don’t feel that someone is giving me the same dignity and respect, I will never disrespect them back but they will know that I’m clocking that I’m not respected. I’m not afraid to read somebody. And Dogi, the way that this bitch knows how to read a bitch down. I’ve never seen anything like it. Mine, I love an articulate read. If I don’t like the changing situation, if [I’m obligated to work for] 10 hours and at 10 hours and nine minutes I’m being berated for those nine minutes—this is my body, this is me, this is my whole self. I bring my whole self, I show you respect and dignity and I expect the same. That is what I said to this girl, “If you bring respect and dignity to every job that you have, by proxy you will say “hello” to everyone, by proxy you will advocate for yourself, by proxy all of these things will happen.” That is my rule…
I’ve always been an Internet girl, because it gives you room to connect with like-minded people… Like yes, validation, but as human beings you need three things: belonging, dignity and safety. You can find those things negatively, but I think that the Internet is an amazing platform to find belonging, in different ways. Is it dangerous? 100%, but what I have centred is maintaining, dare I say it, in a really cringe way, my authenticity, and being able to convey that to the world as safely as I can. Even though I’m quite an open book, if I sat down with a random stranger I’m not going to tell them what the fuck I ate to day and every fucking thing, so half a million other strangers also don’t need to know that… I think it comes very naturally for [me], the way that I live online. Actually, if anything I live far more mysteriously online. I don’t think people know that I’m a looney toon or that I’m goofy. [All laugh]. That’s reserved for my people, and if you meet me in person that’s what you’re going to experience.
I’m curious to hear what Dogi says, because he’s more—not veneered, but I think it’s also different for stylists. Some stylists really do want to be more front-facing, but to know Dogi is to truly love him and if he did show more of himself online, there wouldn’t be so much of this personality catfish. We’re really lucky that we don’t have to perform our personalities, because we are just naturally, you know, energised. [All laugh].
100%. Also, I want to just say, that girl is not the same but that girl that you were and the girl that I was was still that bitch. Let’s not forget. I didn’t need fashion… I wasn’t like “Oh, before fashion I was sitting in my attic reading books.” I was out, always…
I was actually just on the phone with my friend Alex [Consani], who is also my good Judy, my good sis. It’s weird because I’m in my thirties and I’m good friends with a 22-year-old. It’s crazy, but I’m so deeply drawn to and I’ve created—Dogi has as well—this cast of characters and outsiders who naturally have that. As somebody who’s older than said friend, and Dogi even though he is younger than me, always galvanises and protects that. Even though the fashion people will be like, “You’re not like us,” don’t ever forget that you’re not like these other bitches and that is actually a power tool.
What’s funny is that so many of the friendships that I have formed, which I am so deeply grateful for, have been born out of working together, and then intimacy and friendship. And it feels so special and so real to just be friends with Dogi without any work transaction. We get to be so close and now have the privilege of working together. There are so many ways in which Dogi has held me in real emotional ways, navigating this industry and vice versa, because that’s really the important thing, and that safety allowed us to shoot 14 looks and for me to be running around naked, not that I don’t already. I’m literally always naked Amelia, I have a naked problem! [All laugh]. I think the most vagina Dogi’s ever seen is mine.
Literally, last night. [Laughs].
It’s insane that this shoot is our first editorial together… On set, it [was] one of the best experiences I’ve ever had. I feel like we were both looking at each other—every idea, every look—and we [were having] telepathy. There were one or two looks that I tried and I was about to say, “I think we should change,” and she was like, “I think we should change.” For me, it was super wholesome. I know my girl, I know my friend, I know the model, but to somehow be together and do all of it. I was blown away by all of it. It was so professional, but also, the movement—it almost made me emotional. I was like, “Damn, this is so good.” It reminded me why she has always been my inspiration. It felt like the creator and the muse finally met after everyone was saying, “You guys should do it.” I mean, as you said [P], we’ve seen everything of each other, but it absolutely felt like a great finale of a season you have been waiting for.
Yes, Kiki says you have five minutes until you need to go… Maybe we can finish with your most dream fulfilling jobs—and within that perhaps, Paloma, you can talk about your back talk reading programme?
As I was building my career in fashion, I used to work with a lot of celebrities—I’ve worked with Troye Sivan, I’ve worked with Charli XCX, I’ve worked with Miley Cyrus—and I felt this European guilt about it so I never posted it… I’m like, “Actually, it’s kind of insane, when I think about the people that I have worked with in the Pop world, that I have never really published it or made it something.” [Paloma returns]. That’s one of those things. But I think one of the biggest accomplishments or biggest dreams fulfilled is actually not a job, it’s more being able to buy my mom a huge house. That was the coolest thing and the realest thing.
Like the jobs are cool, right? And I’m grateful, but that was the biggest thing of mine on the top of the bucket list… Back talk, give us something because you have to go [P].
Hopefully one in London?
Amazing. I know you have to rush off now Paloma so just to say thank you both so much for your time…
Thank you Amelia. I love you Dogi, see you later.
